This community got removed from lemmy.world (again) - Divisions by zero
lemmy.dbzer0.com
This is another post that alerted me of this. https://lemmy.world/post/13287681 [https://lemmy.world/post/13287681] And here is the modlog: https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModRemoveCommunity [https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModRemoveCommunity]

This has happened once before and they reversed it. But they said this last time too:

The discussions that have happened in various threads on Lemmy make it very clear that removing the communites before we announced our intent to remove them is not the level of transparency the community expects, and that as stewards of this community we need to be extremely transparent before we do this again in the future as well as make sure that we get feedback around what the planned changes are, because lemmy.world is yours as much as it is ours.

https://lemmy.world/post/3234363

  • TORFdot0@lemmy.worldEnglish
    1173·
    8 months ago

    Great thing about the fediverse is that you have options when admin/moderation actions occur that you don’t agree with. If Reddit were to remove /r/piracy then we’d have no recourse

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.worldEnglish
      15·
      8 months ago

      Very true…as long as the federation of servers remains as it is now, but I’m increasingly worried it won’t.

      I mean, yes, Dbzer0 still exists, and yes, you can access it from other instances, but Lemmy.world is the biggest one and users here being cut off from it from here will strangle the amount of activity it gets. Visibility is important for the health of other instances and their communities. There’s a good reason why alternative subreddits never outgrow the main ones.

      There’s also a sentiment among some admins and some of the contributors to both Lemmy and the Sublinks project that feels like it runs counter to the premise of Lemmy as whole: an unwillingness commit to a truly shared space or adhere to a standard for what federation is supposed to mean. Instances are not only encouraged to do whatever, they’re being given more tools to. And that’s good for fighting spam, child porn, and malicious instances, but it doesn’t stop there.

      I really hope an app or frontend comes along at some point that will seamlessly combine instance accounts and “fill in the blanks” created by instance admins so users can have a clear picture of Lemmy, regardless of the instance they’re on.

      • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        6·
        8 months ago

        I mean, yes, Dbzer0 still exists, and yes, you can access it from other instances, but Lemmy.world is the biggest one and users here being cut off from it from here will strangle the amount of activity it gets. Visibility is important for the health of other instances and their communities. There’s a good reason why alternative subreddits never outgrow the main ones.

        Yes and no. While it’s true that piracy might not get “drive-by” traffic from l.w. users, those users who become aware of it, or who want to access it will be forced to create an account elsewhere than l.w. which will also help with redistributing users to smaller instances.

  • Handles@leminal.spaceEnglish
    878·
    8 months ago

    This is why you don’t sign up with the biggest possible instances, eventually they will become the biggest possible bottleneck in a network. Anything dot world admins do will affect all of their users, that shouldn’t be surprising 🤷

    As for dbzer0, this might affect users in the short term but eventually people will figure out how to access the sub from more friendly instances.

    • Count Regal Inkwell@pawb.socialEnglish
      467·
      8 months ago

      Yeah that. And I say it as someone who, on a good day, will go on philosophical rambles about how piracy is in fact the moral thing to do.

      Do people just not get that this is the entire point of a decentralized system?

      Hop accounts, you lil’ bitch. Don’t sit in one server complaining about the owner of that server when you have a billion options.

      And if your priority is the piracy community? Make the server that hosts that your homeserver.

      Or just have more than one account and use an app instead of the default webpage.

      It’s not rocket science. People’s brains are poisoned by centralization. Back in my day everything was its own separate forum with its own separate account and to be honest, it was miles better like that.

      • Grimy@lemmy.worldEnglish
        139·
        8 months ago

        The problem with this is that it isn’t really decentralized equally. Lemmy.world has most of the users and getting defederated from them is essentially a death sentence in terms of content and engagement.

        I think it’s a good idea to make new accounts on other instances, I plan to but without a proper amount of people, lemmy.world is working the same way reddit did.

        • Count Regal Inkwell@pawb.socialEnglish
          21·
          8 months ago

          The problem with this is that it isn’t really decentralized equally. Lemmy.world has most of the users and getting defederated from them is essentially a death sentence in terms of content and engagement.

          Self-resolving issue here. If people hop away from LW due to LW making decisions they don’t like, LW will cease being the one-go-to-place for stuff. Which is good, it shouldn’t be. No one instance should be “the main instance”. The right way to use federation is each person & community should make their home at a place where they vibe just right with the fed admins. It’s even good for LW itself as it reduces the burden on its server and the workload for its admins.

          Also also – Defederation is a far more nuanced thing than just “is block”. There is more than one tool that can be used by an ActivityPub admin.

          If LW defederates from your home instance – You can still manually follow communities that are in LW AND interact with them (unless the admins go out of their way to ALSO block USERS from your home instance), as “defederated from the instance” just removes it from the global timeline/global community search.

          What happened here, though, wasn’t defederation, it was a block, and a block on two specific communities, which outright prevents viewing & interacting with content from those communities from within LW. Which brings me to: LW’s block on the piracy communities from dbzer0 doesn’t stop LW users from interacting with dbzer0 as a whole. Or vice-versa. Only with stuff from the piracy coms.

        • Blaze@dormi.zoneEnglish
          91·
          8 months ago

          Hopefully this will drive people to switch to another instance, and the issue you mentions will be less present.

    • kratoz29@lemm.eeEnglish
      18·
      8 months ago

      I did that the last time and moved here ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      Better management, no censorship, better uptimes and quicker upgrades, no need to look back (I moved “momentarily”).

      • Blaze@dormi.zoneEnglish
        91·
        8 months ago

        quicker upgrades

        That’s an important one, especially with how long it took LW to upgrade. I completely get why it’s more challenging for them due to their number of users, but that could be an argument for enthusiastic users to move elsewhere.

        • Draconic NEO@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          8 months ago

          Great question, see when instances have management level disagreements like this there really isn’t any purpose to using their communities from a remote account.

          Unlike a lot of people who “migrated” I realize it ultimately doesn’t make a difference using these communities from a remote server because they are controlled by this one and ultimately will be affected by defederations and bans. So I only migrated my non-lemmy.world subscriptions to the other instance accounts and left the local ones on this account.

    • Lemonparty@lemm.eeEnglish
      2030·
      8 months ago

      Reddit syndrome still affects a lot of users here, who view having multiple accounts on different answers as an inconvenience instead of a feature of the platform design. The irony is that tons of users on Reddit had lots of accounts without batting an eye, but that extra step of having to lick a new instance is just SO complicated.

      • Maalus@lemmy.worldEnglish
        359·
        8 months ago

        It is an inconvenience. Having to track which account can view which communities, with all the drama and defederation happening each week isn’t easy.

        • Lemonparty@lemm.eeEnglish
          15·
          8 months ago

          Picking a better instance for your main is most advisable. Users can accept that the primary benefit of a free and open source federated service can also sometimes inconvenience them, or they cannot. Complaining about the core mechanic of the technology that literally cannot change is silly IMO. Corporate owned centralization leads to enshittification. Your account age indicates that you know that first hand.

        • FaceDeer@kbin.social
          5·
          8 months ago

          Indeed. There are lots of proposals for perfectly portable decentralized user identities, subscriptions that transcend specific instances, and whatnot, but until those things actually arrive that’s not the Fediverse we’re dealing with. It’s a hassle having to switch instances.

        • Count Regal Inkwell@pawb.socialEnglish
          816·
          8 months ago

          Centralized Reddit brain poison tbh.

          Your password manager will keep track of your credentials. If you have THAT MUCH trouble keeping track of which communities are on which server, stick to local communities.

          Back in the day we had everything be its own separate forum and no one died from that. You’re just lazy.

      • BURN@lemmy.worldEnglish
        414·
        8 months ago

        It’s a major inconvenience and I’ll stick to one. If it can’t be accessed from Lemmy.world it’s not really my problem tbh and I’ll just act like it doesn’t exist.

        • tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          3·
          8 months ago

          I’ve never noticed any defederation from my instance or drama aside from the main posts talking about it, and if you came here interested in a piracy community it’s good for that, lemmy.dbzer0.com. “Lemmy.World” seems to be where all the drama happens hah. I have only ever made one account, interact with several different instances without issue. I agree using several accounts would be annoying.

  • cum@lemmy.cafeEnglish
    701·
    8 months ago

    This isn’t reddit. There’s a clear solution here: decentralization. Aka, like the entire point why we’re on Lemmy in the first place. Join another instance lol.

    • Socsa@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      426·
      8 months ago

      Yeah people are really weird about this. They want a free distributed forum hosted by small admins, but don’t want those individuals to take basic legal precautions? Piracy might be moral, but it’s a liability which will absolutely impact the viability of servers in many places. Grow up.

    • nutsack@lemmy.worldEnglish
      142·
      8 months ago

      The Lemmy instance doesn’t actually host pirated content, does it? It’s just information about pirated content and where to find it, right? Who the fuck cares about this

        • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.worldEnglish
          74·
          8 months ago

          I guess the question is: if you host a public forum, are you liable for things posted on it, or on separate but linked forums?

            • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.worldEnglish
              54·
              8 months ago

              Comments like this sound like the “they write it off on tax” comments, where there’s this assumption about how complex things must work, but it can’t work exactly that way otherwise we would see it happening all the time.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              8 months ago

              It doesn’t matter if you don’t have limitless money to pay lawyers

              Since anyone can spin up a Lemmy server, at some point a rich person/persons will do so, which makes this a relevant question to ask.

          • castlebravo404@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
            52·
            8 months ago

            You might not have to pay damages. But you’re probably going to have to pay a hefty legal fee not to pay damages.

            • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.worldEnglish
              106·
              8 months ago

              Copyright laws are actually very difficult to enforce when it comes to digital piracy. You have to prove loss of profit among other things.

              Then, who do you sue? The person downloading the product? The person hosting the product? The person providing a link to the hosted data? The person providing a platform for people to link things? The person who allows their platform to federate with another platform that does?

              If we’re talking about P2P sharing, then in a way no one is hosting the data.

              In Australia when the Dallas Buyers Club case was being looked at, the studio was asking for a lot of money. Basically a big fat fine to be paid. The judge threw it out saying that the only reasonable damages for one person to pay would be the cost of the DVD because that was the value of the “theft”.

              • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.worldEnglish
                10·
                8 months ago

                You dont have to enforce it.

                You just have to drown people in legal bills and force them into compliance with risk of bankruptcy.

                • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  41·
                  8 months ago

                  I don’t know enough about law to know how that does or does not work, but it that’s possible then any entity with enough money can actively bankrupt anyone they want, and it won’t have anything to do with why. If that’s true could you not just sue someone by making stuff up and force them to prove you made it up?

          • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            8 months ago

            I guess the question is: if you host a public forum, are you liable for things posted on it, or on separate but linked forums?

            I was thinking the same thing, as a legal question.

            In the Fediverse, who’s the source/target for the law to look at, the originator, or all the cached copies on other servers?

            Edit: Basically, what this comment describes…

            Then, who do you sue? The person downloading the product? The person hosting the product? The person providing a link to the hosted data? The person providing a platform for people to link things? The person who allows their platform to federate with another platform that does?

            If we’re talking about P2P sharing, then in a way no one is hosting the data.

  • lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
    4410·
    8 months ago

    When “reddit outside of reddit” does reddit things 🫨

    • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.worldEnglish
      43·
      8 months ago

      To be fair, Rudd is just a hobbyist who runs .world in his spare time. If he’s getting legal pressure, he’s probably going to cover his ass. He’s not a company with a legal dept. He’s a guy with a family and a day job.

      • uis@lemm.eeEnglish
        33·
        8 months ago

        Another problem is .world part of US-centric instance

    • PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.worldEnglish
      92·
      8 months ago

      When the people using a free service you’re not obligated to provide try and shame you for not taking on multimillion dollar legal departments.

      • lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
        33·
        8 months ago

        The communities they banned are only for the discussion of piracy(whick is legal). There are no copyrighted material hosted in any of them.

        • PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.worldEnglish
          32·
          8 months ago

          It doesn’t matter if they’re blessed by the Pope himself. The people who run the instance get to decide what moves through it.

          • lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
            3·
            8 months ago

            Yes, and I can voice my dissatisfaction with it. I’m not sure what your point is other than trying to tell me to shut up in a more verbose way.

    • Allero@lemmy.todayEnglish
      42·
      8 months ago

      The benefit is that it isn’t just another reddit but rather network of reddits

      Banned on one? Get from another.

      • lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
        21·
        8 months ago

        I’m referring specifically to lemmy.world, not to all of lemmy or even the fediverse.

  • daniskarma@lemmy.worldEnglish
    387·
    8 months ago

    Sad that antipiracy laws are in place.

    But understandable that lemmy.world protect themselves against those unfair laws.

    The sailing will continue, but, as always, we should be wary of the “navy” and sail with precaution.

    • Zak@lemmy.worldEnglish
      143·
      8 months ago

      No. Every community is hosted by a server, just as every user account is. Removing a community is similar to banning a user.

      • Neato@ttrpg.networkEnglish
        9·
        8 months ago

        So it just means that lemmy.world users can no longer see that specific community, right?

        • Zak@lemmy.worldEnglish
          116·
          8 months ago

          No, it means the community no longer functions and most posts to it aren’t available on other servers either. You can view some remnants of it on other servers, but I’m not sure what will happen if you try to post to them.

          • satxdude@lemm.eeOPEnglish
            141·
            8 months ago

            No that’s not correct because the community they banned was not on their instance.

            All this does is prevent Lemmy.World users from using or seeing the community. Everyone else is unaffected.

            • Zak@lemmy.worldEnglish
              5·
              8 months ago

              I misunderstood which community was being discussed. You’re correct.

              • A server banning a community it hosts effectively destroys that community
              • A server banning a community it does not host makes that server’s users unable to interact with it

              That’s very similar to banning a user.

  • NutWrench@lemmy.worldEnglish
    225·
    8 months ago

    The pirates will simply move to another Lemmy Instance and re-create the group there. This is the advantage of having a decentralized platform: so one person or small group of people can’t ruin things for the rest of us.

  • Iapar@feddit.deEnglish
    214·
    8 months ago

    Spin up a piracy instance on a server in China or Russia and be done with it.

        • Allero@lemmy.todayEnglish
          2·
          8 months ago

          A Russian word play around Roskomnadzor, i.e. The Federal Service for Supervision of Communications, Information Technology and Mass Media, an agency responsible, among other things, for censoring media and blocking access to Internet resources, as well as proceeding with criminal allegations on illegal content.

          Pozor (Позор) means “shame”.