• leetnewb@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    You can point out back and forth violence going into the 1800s. Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

    • FIash Mob #5678@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Yeah, but siding with Israel here is the logical equivalent of siding with Andrew Jackson and supporting the Indian Removal Act as he committed genocide against the native people.

      The power imbalance and how Israel has used it is what makes it imperative that Israel be held accountable by the international community.

      • knokelmaat@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I’m glad you bring up the power imbalance. The “both sides have been doing horrible stuff” only works if both sides have equal footing, which they clearly do not. This does not negate the crimes commited by Hamas, but extremism doesn’t come from nowhere and Israël has a responsibility in that.

        • library_napper@monyet.cc
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          1 year ago

          Also disproportionate use of force is a war crime. We see Israel doing this in every war with Palestine since the Nakba.

    • onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      Except jews, christians and muslims lived pretty much peacefully together during ottoman rule. The violence worsened when britian controlled palestine and then became a lot worse during the nakba and israeli occupation. It’s not about ‘having clean hands’. It’s about stopping genocide and understanding that occupation and colonialism leads to violent pushback. It always has and always will.

      • sqgl@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        Wasn’t the Ottoman period occupation/colonialism too? Not that I am in favour of imperialism but you do raise a fascinating point I wasn’t aware of.

        • onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          The Ottomans took control of palestine after a war with the Mamluk empire. Palestine hasn’t been and independent country for much of it’s history. It’s still a form of occupation but if you were muslim, christian or jewish you still had access to certain rights (unless you were a slave). Mostly if you were muslim.

      • lefaucet@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        I dont know anything about this. We’re they all living in the same neighborhoods or we’re they in different neighborhoods in the same city or like different towns in the same Provence?

        Just curious how closely bound their networks were. In my home town folks of different faiths are neighbors and mostly go to the same schools and share a government. There’s not much segregation at all. Sure, there’s racism among all groups, but it gets much weaker and much less frequent with each generation.

        Oh yeah and fuck the ole British state. Bunch of tossers meddling all about so they can exploit everyone’s resources. Their emancipated colony, all-grown-up now, isn’t much better.

    • blazera@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Mostly it goes back to the 1940’s. There was more history of Zionism beforehand, Jewish settlers gradually coming in to live in the holy land. But after WW2 was the large influx and big push for a Jewish ethnostate. Aaand the people living there already opposed it from the start. And since then it’s been very apparent why, because Israel pushes beyond the borders they were already given from Palestinian land, and militarily occupy the Palestinian land they dont yet claim.

      • sqgl@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        It was Arabs who did not accept those borders. They lost and Israel expanded.

        What I have more of a problem with is the settlers in the WB and that seems to be Bibi’s doing without much pushback from USA. Fascists gonna fasche.

        • library_napper@monyet.cc
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          1 year ago

          They were never given a vote. The UN voted to take away the Palestinians’ land, and the actual people living there weren’t given a single fucking vote in the issue.

          • sqgl@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            What vote? I wasn’t talking about any election and neither was blazera (who correctly said Jews were given the land).

            I was talking about the 6 day war. Great animation showing the history here https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc/

            • jarfil@beehaw.org
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              1 year ago

              What vote?

              Timeline:

              • 1947 - The resolution was voted on by the UN
              • Arab countries didn’t accept it
              • Civil war between Zionists and non-Zionists
              • 1948 - A day before Britain’s retreat, Israel claims all the land
              • A day later, Arab countries attack Israel in order to “push the Jews into the sea”
              • Israel wins most of the land, except Gaza and Cisjordania

              Jews were given the land

              Well… kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.

              the 6 day war

              That’s in 1967. Israel wasn’t “given” any land there, it used a provocation by Egypt in order to claim all of it (and have Egypt give thanks for not claiming all of Sinai too… for now).

              • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                1 year ago

                Jews were given the land

                Well… kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.

                They were given the land by UN at the start of the partition. I want discussing whether it was just.

                the 6 day war

                That’s in 1967.

                Yep, just as I said.

                Israel wasn’t “given” any land there

                Didn’t say it was dune in 1967. It was given by UN straight after WW2. I was being as brief as possible.

                It seems we agree on everything except the following. Hopefully you can clarify for me please…

                1948 - A day before Britain’s retreat, Israel claims all the land

                Not explicitly AFAIK. This is my understanding…

                Arabs were not OK with the UN partition but Jews were. Jews therefore understood that would mean Arabs would annul the partition as soon as the Brits exited so they declared independence from the day of the exit but I cannot find any borders mentioned. Then the Arabs really did attack.

                Do you know of any borders mentioned by Jews then? Did they state “we want to be observed of the Arab partitions?” Certainly that is how it ended up but was that the plan on Independence Day? Wikipedia is vague.

                • jarfil@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  There is a funny tidbit on the Wikipedia page:

                  Although Ben-Gurion had told the audience that he was reading from the scroll of independence, he was actually reading from handwritten notes because only the bottom part of the scroll had been finished by artist and calligrapher Otte Wallish by the time of the declaration (he did not complete the entire document until June)

                  https://catalog.archives.gov.il/en/chapter/the-declaration-of-independence/

                  Because there was no time to spare, the Declaration was read from a mimeographed sheet, and the 37 signatories – members of the Provisional Council of State – signed their names to a blank parchment sheet. The official copy of the Declaration was later inscribed by an artist.


                  As for borders, by following the Declaration of Independence itself:

                  THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

                  The UN resolution called for an economic union of “Israel and Palestine”, which would imply that “Eretz-Israel” was supposed to mean the whole land of the “Mandatory Palestine”.

                  Prior to that:

                  ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

                  The British mandate was over the whole “Mandatory Palestine”… but the declaration talks about the State of Israel being “in Eretz-Israel”, without specifying any explicit borders.

                  The “spirit” of the text can be interpreted as intended to follow the borders of the UN resolution… maybe.

                  Since the resolution clearly was not accepted by the Arab states, it would require some further analysis whether that means Israel is supposed to prioritize establishing an economic union of the whole land, or strictly follow the resolution.

                  • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                    1 year ago

                    MVP! Thanks.

                    So it sounds like the UN presumed the states would form a union (like the EU) without caring if the member states wanted it.

                    Arabs I think were not happy even with the initial borders since Israel were a smaller population but handed a larger land area than Arabs. Maybe some anti-semitism too but that disparity must have stung.

                    Israel was happy with the allotment and even with the union as long as they were the masters of the union. Islamophobia too perhaps.

                    Chicken and the egg. Each side had a reason to distrust the other and it has just been spiralling ever since.

                    Seems like Britain should have stayed on a few more years but were probably too tired after WW2.

                    I am mainly learning only now. Are you also researching as we go or have you already familiarized yourself with much of the detail? Either way I appreciate having someone who is polite to discuss this with.

        • blazera@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game? Zionists invaded, murdered, and exiled palestinians from their land, that should “win” them nothing but opposition from the international community, same as happening with Russias invasion of Ukraine.

          • sqgl@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game?

            What do you mean by “it”?

            I thought we were talking specifically about changes to the borders of what was given to them (irresponsibly?) by the Allies after WW2.

            The 6 day war in 1967 was initiated by surrounding Arab countries. Israel won that war and expanded into the Sinai and Gaza (Egypt), Golan Heights (Syria), West Bank and East Jerusalem (Jordan). They didn’t initiate the expansion. They then returned the Sinai to Egypt.

            Admittedly after that they did take more without provocation. The chipping away with settlements is happening to this very day.

            I just rewatched the above video in order to spell out the details. It is all new to me. Have a look yourself if you are genuinely interested in discussing the conflict. It really is well made and easy to follow (I dunno if there are errors though).

            • blazera@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Nothing was ever given to them, only taken. They were living there already. They did not consent to being murdered and evicted from where they lived, and predictably they fought against it. That they lost against a much larger, internationally backed army invading their land doesnt exactly persuade me that they should lose their right to living there.

              • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                1 year ago

                Nothing was ever given to them, only taken

                Who is “them”? I was talking about the land given to Jews by the colonisers: England and France.

                The 6 day war had a larger army on the Arab side. I dunno how much financial backing Israel had from USA or how it compared with the backing (if any) by the Arab oil states and I doubt you know or care either.

                I am trying to learn here, but you just insist on lazy mud slinging. Blocking you.

                • blazera@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  You and the rest of the world are blocking out the truth, not able to defend the indefensible actions of Israel.

        • library_napper@monyet.cc
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          1 year ago

          This issue has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Zionism.

          Jews have lived there peacefully, yes. They did so without stealing their neighbors land. Its the Zionists that formed Israel and stole ~40% of Palesines land that caused the war.

          There have always been Jews opposed to Zionism since the idea was first thought up.

          • sqgl@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees I can understand why.

            And look at the rise of cookers who think we live on a flat earth run by a cabal of Jewish shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. I do not think social progress by humanity is inevitable anymore.

            Nazi Germany could really happen again. Just last week in Australia a judge revealed himself to be a Nazi sympathiser… https://old.reddit.com/r/auslaw/comments/17hecdx/comment/k6nuov1/

            • jarfil@beehaw.org
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              1 year ago

              After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees

              Zionism starts in the 1800s, well before the Nazi shit. The 1940’s One Million Plan actually got amended after the Holocaust by stirring up a civil war so more Jews from Arab countries would flee in fear of prosecution in order to meet the Zionist numbers, precisely because “too many” Western countries were accepting (or got forced to accept) Holocaust refugees, who were nowhere as many as previously expected (by the Zionists).

              Nazi Germany could really happen again

              Not exactly. Genocides have been going on all the time, just the countries and ethnicities have been changing. So you could say it’s been happening all along… while the chance of the same exact combination repeating, is quite low.

              • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                1 year ago

                Thanks for the background info.

                I used to resent that Jews had a special word just for them: “antisemitism”. But now I see it might be warranted because although every migrant group gets racist pushback, it is Jews who are the target of crazy conspiracy theorists. It is Jews who are said to secretly run the world.

                I am not joking about the shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. That is from David Icke who says our world leaders are those lizards.

                It is thought that he is using it as a dog-whistle for Nazis (to mean Jews). Certainly there is a disproportionate crossover between Nazis and Icke supporters.

                Icke also championed the 5G conspiracies, is an anti-vaxxer and thinks the moon is a hollow spaceship used by aliens to spy on us from. I can’t even…

                • jarfil@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  I used to resent that Jews had a special word just for them: “antisemitism”

                  “Antisemitism” is technically a BS word, just like the “Semitism” word it comes from. It was invented in the 1800s by some proto-Nazis, adopted in the 1900s by Nazis after the concept was already debunked, and continued in the 2000s by neo-Nazis. Nothing to be either jealous or proud of.

                  Jews who are said to secretly run the world

                  Somewhat ironically, not so secretly, and not a conspiracy.

                  Since 70CE, all Jews have been required to both read and understand the Torah, while other religions relied on priests “interpreting” the sacred texts for uneducated peasants, leading to Jewish literacy levels of 70% or more in countries with otherwise a 3% or less during the Middle Ages. At the same time, both Christians and Muslims were forbidden from “usury”, or charging interest on loans (Muslim banking still is), but guess who wasn’t: Jews. And who’d guess it, the Diaspora meant there was one or a dozen Jews pretty much in every city. As commerce grew all over the world, merchants used to go to literate Jews, like the ones sitting on the bench (“banca”) in Florence, asking for loans and generally to do what nobody else was either capable or allowed to do, like letting them carry bank notes instead of coffers full of gold, redeemable at other “branches”. Big surprise, some centuries later, you can trace most of the financial world back to Jews, both the concepts and ownership.

                  Also not a coincidence there have been so many famous Jewish artists, scientists or inventors. Anyone who’s got a problem with that, can thank their own religious ancestry for the cultural suicide.

                  dog-whistle for Nazis (to mean Jews)

                  …but of course it’s easier to blame the guys who got it right, while spreading further conspiranoic BS to dig an even deeper hole for one’s own culture. 🤦

                  • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                    1 year ago

                    Thanks. Your summary is great copypasta I will be using in future.

                    I learned all about that from my Jewish friend (who is afraid to let people know. I used to think it was paranoid but after the rise of the cookers and Nazis, I now appreciate his caution).

                    The only AI I fear is Augmented Idiocy. Covid will subside but the declining language and science literacy and numeracy is just getting worse. Flat earthers are on the increase FFS.

                  • sqgl@beehaw.org
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                    1 year ago

                    This bit I disagree with though:

                    “Antisemitism” is technically a BS word, just like the “Semitism” word it comes from. It was invented in the 1800s by some proto-Nazis, adopted in the 1900s by Nazis after the concept was already debunked, and continued in the 2000s by neo-Nazis.

                    BS or not the racist extremists, from what you tell us, made up the word Semitism so surely that warrants legitimate pushback with the term Antisemitism?

        • blazera@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I dont care that they were ottoman or british ruled, it was palestinians living there, and they opposed zionism from the beginning